*all cut/pasted or quoted lines were posted with the approval of the respective writers.*
Episode 31, Heroes and Villains was an interesting episode for me personally since it was really the first time we as a panel crossed the line from right and wrong to morally (??) right and wrong. This even is a bit tongue-in-cheek since the “morality” line is pretty grey and fuzzy when it comes to EVE Online.
After posting the episode, we were convo’d by a member of the James315 organization with his disagreement of the “stance” the podcast took. He agreed to have the convo posted, so I will post it unedited.
Hey guys,
Love the podcast so thanks for putting all the work in that goes into making it really enjoyable.
I’m sad however to hear a misrepresentation of minerbumping being aired on episode 31. It was claimed that Code(dot) hides behind NPC corps, that they don’t create content and that you cannot really fight back. It was also claimed that it was all about tear collection.
I can see how that might be how Code(dot) us viewed from the outside but it isn’t true.
Firstly Code(dot) is regularly wardecced and we deal with it by carrying on as normal. In general a wardec has little effect on Code due it membership being -10. While it could be said that scouts hide in NPC corps certainly my own is in a corp. Further more you could create your own suicide ganking alts to take out scouts with.
Secondly players do right back. Sarah Flynn is a beloved rebel who fights back. I’ve had my own ganks interfered with by her and it was great to see someone take the initiative to fight back. In general ecm is your friend for fighting back. In addition I have found some Russian corps have taken to camping me into my staging station to prevent me ganking. All this is creating content fir those players, especially as many gankers will seek ways to continue ganking when un these sorts of situations to prove that they can and so prove the opportunity for revenge to be had.
Finally tear collection is no more or less a part of ganking than any other aspect if eve. I personally tend to send eve-mails to players explaining what happened to them and how they might avoid it in the future. You will in fact find that barring the show of support to James 315 and the permit the Code is basically good advice on how nit to get ganked.
In closing I suicide gank as a change of pass from solo and small gang pvp in lowsec or daytripping in wormholes. It’s not about tears or causing grief, it’s about a different sort of challenge. Try it yourselves before you condemn it.
Shizuka Mena
His thoughts continued in a second email…
Hello again. I don’t feel like I did credit to all the ways that an enterprising player could fight back against the New Order so I’m following up with this mail.
I previously outlined direct in space ways but ignored emergent/meta-game ways to fight back.
You could infiltrate Code(dot) and awok the gankers, or spy on them and report to anti-order Intel Channels.
Better yet you could use the order to further your own industrial empire while hurting the competition by creating ganking alts, selling yourself permits (removing the isk loss) and then use the ganking alts to claim a nice system in which to mine in hassle free.
Or if you want to hurt their wallets bait them with a tanked orca and use out of corp logistics/ecm to make the gank fail. Such a bait orca could well see the order bring out brutix/tornado or at least vexors for the gank so it’s not just a few cats on the line.
So yeah, if you can’t work out how to fight back this should give you a place to start.
I certainly welcome more content in highsec so bring it on.
Shizuka Mena
My response was…
For as many different players there are in EVE, there will be that many differing opinions. Each person has their personal “line” that they would like to see punished if crossed.
I have done a LOT of things in EVE. I’ve mined more rocks (than I care to remember) and still do for my industrial projects. I’ve spent a little time in a high sec war dec corp. I have jumped into Catalysts and ganked miners. (Hulkageddon ftw!) I have even jumped into mining ships AFTER ganks, just to see if anyone will take a shot at me. (Honestly, the Ice Interdiction was hilarious to me. I would often go mine Gall Ice during the interdiction for fun. And I have nothing that uses it!) The point being that sometimes, I like to quietly sit back and mine, sometimes I like to pvp, sometimes I like to be naughty and gank. I hate (HATE!) when people tell me I’m playing wrong, just because I don’t play the way that they do.
The gist of what some of the panel members said were the issues of collecting tears and that’s where my “line” starts to come into play. I, personally, have no issues with ganking and would be horrified if it was driven from the game. My issues lie in singling out players for harassment, or acting in a crass/douchebaggery manner. Again, MY line. I’m of the firm belief that if I go out and gank someone, I will not harass them to milk their tears. If they call me out, I’m prepared to meet them, win or lose.
I have gone to the James315 site and I have read the code and the blogs. You say that you use the gank as a teaching tool. You write back to inform your victim what they could have done better to prevent it. Does everyone in CODE(dot) do that? Because, if they did, I’d have a much higher opinion of your organization. I’ll go out on a limb and say you are a rare exception.
I ran in FW very very briefly shortly after it was started with an alt character. (I’ve mentioned this on the cast before so forgive me if I’m rambling) My whole experience with FW was tainted by the “douchebaggery” on coms to the point where I doubt that I’ll ever rejoin it, despite the fact that it’s been years since that experience. Again, my personal line.
I’m not saying that how you, your corpies in CODE(dot), or others that share a similar play style are wrong, I’m just saying that I don’t like how it’s done. You are certainly allowed your play style, just understand that there are people, and opinions, that are counter to it.
Saying that, if you or any of your corpies would like to come on the cast, I’m totally cool with that. As long as we can keep the conversation civil, and you understand that you may not be the most popular kids in class.
Hope I didn’t put you to sleep with this ramble! Thanks again for your post and comments! We really do appreciate it.
Random
His counter…
Hey,
Didn’t expect to hear back so quickly! Feel free to post anything I mail you wherever you like.
So there is a bunch of stuff to unpack here.
I don’t think the implication that Code(dot) tells people they are playing the game wrong us really legitimate. What we really tell people is “you’re free to play however you want but what we do is a consequence of how you play. Don’t pay enough attention, buy a permit or fight back and we will gank you.”
Agents/Knights if the Code should be conducting themselves in a polite fashion at the very least. Certainly when I was interviewed by Blackskull to join the New Order Death Dealers I was told that real world discrimination was unacceptable (and rightly so). While tear collection does happen it is not in my experience the norm. Most gankers that I know are happy to talk about how to avoid being ganked etc. Sure they will tell you to get a permit but believe it or not they’re aren’t a scam. It’s like being attacked by a pirate in lowsec. You can rage and cry about it or you can ask what happened and how you deal with it. Just like in lowsec some pirates wont talk to you, some will talk back and some will start the dialog.
I agree that a lot of comma can be toxic wastelands. It’s one of the reasons I enjoy flying with Brave on another character. Stay classy is one of the greatest rules ever invented. However even when people do harvest tears they tend to be polite about it even if only for the selfish reason that being nice after doing something that hurts a character in game tends to make those people that that would rage do so that much harder.
The vile things that gankers get sent are very often unsolicited and when they are a reply are often in reply to being offered help. That raises the question of who is really the villain?
So this leads us to harassment. I do not believe for a moment that minerbumping harasses anyone. The general procedure us go to a system, gank in it till the locals wise up or move, then stage to a new system. All a miner has to do is move when Code(dot) moves in. Alternatively a tanked procurer reduces the risk a lot and being at your keyboard is very helpful. Again the permits aren’t a scam, but you do have to follow the code for them to be valid. While the code is loose I have personally witnesses Blackskull get upset over having to reimburse a miner who had a permit and hadn’t broken the code. Generally miners with permits that get upset after being ganked had failed to follow a very clear part of the code.
I don’t feel qualified to represent Code(dot) on your cast but would do it anyway coz that would be awesome. I can certainty pass on an invite if you ‘d like.
Shizuka Mena
MY counter…
Shizuka,
Some very fair and well stated comments. I want to be clear, though, about the comments I’ve made and the line I draw.
Again, I don’t have issues with ganking. I do not want to see it removed from the game. You comment “The vile things that gankers get sent are very often unsolicited and when they are a reply are often in reply to being offered help. That raises the question of who is really the villain?”. Seriously? You just ganked their ship because they refused to pay protection money. You chose to lose your ship by ganking (via CONCORD reaction). Your victim, realistically, did not choose to be ganked. (Arguments can be made if that person was a douche in local. OR, if he named his ship “Gank Me”….which I’ve done before 😉 ) When I was a young and more risk averse person, I’d have raged as well.
Whenever I ganked, I KNEW I was the villain in that scenario. If you cannot see the difference, then nothing I can argue will change your mind. You cannot convince a Prius owner that your beat up Buick is more fuel efficient, no matter how strongly you believe it.
My stand, again, is against the douchebaggery, whether typed in local, evemailed to the victim or posted on a website. I will state again. If you, your corp and all of CODE(dot) were providing a service without any sort of douchebaggery in local, on your coms or on your website, I would have a much higher level of respect. (I see the “egging on” of victims as toeing that line, but I wont go there)
If you dont mind, I’d like to ask some questions. When I started the game, the corp that I joined was active in a time that didn’t always coincide with my play time. As a way to play until they arrived, I often mined in my little mining ship or belt ratted (in high sec…ugh) just to make an income. The first time I broke 1 mil isk, I was ecstatic. How would you treat players like this that you would encounter? Do you check how long they’ve been in game before undergoing a gank? Do CODE(dot) look at these sort of things or is there a blanket policy of “you didn’t buy a permit therefore you are a target”? What do you do for the very new players that literally cannot afford the permit fee?
Random
Finally…
I guess I equivocated in that last reply (sorry I should know better) I do not think that I am a villain or a hero. I just play a game. Admittedly I have a particular view on the attitude people should have when playing games. Namely that a game is just a game, and if it stops being a game you are responsible for that and need to walk away.
For example when I fell for a scam way back when and lost what was for me, at the time, a lot of isk I raged. But I didn’t send any rl death threats or swear at anyone. I shut down eve, calmed down and when I came back had a good chuckle to myself about what an idiot I had been.
Shizuka is clearly a Villain though. She is outlaw and on her way to -10. She follows an insane cult leader (I don’t however think the player behind James 315 is insane or a cult leader, then again maybe I’m too much of a role-player)
I don’t think the humble miner is a Villain for mining. I do think that any player who sends death threats, insults you based on age, race, religion, sexuality etc is a pretty horrible person and needs to remember that there is almost certainly a reasonable, decent human being on the other side.
I think we’re largely in agreement about people being decent to each other.
As for new players. People don’t avoid ganking them as a rule but most do anyway. It takes effort for someone to bother with a venture for example. The most organised and celebrated ganking is of freighters and orcas after all. Certainly if a new player gets ganked and they try to learn from it they are going to get helped out with teaching and quite possibly isk. I know many agents point gankers towards the angle project as well. Given that I recently heard that one of the highest problems for the angle project is actually getting the word out to newbros I figure that is a good thing even if it doesn’t exactly count in favour of Code(dot).
Shizuka Mena
Where am I going with this? I’m really not exactly sure.
I just think it’s fair to point out (to anyone who bothers to read it) that there are various forms of play. You may not like how I play. I may not like how you play. If you read some of the tears on the Minerbumping website, you will see some serious hostility when people lose their ships. I’m not a big fan of the “Cult” of Minerbumping, but the hostility that is generated towards them…IN A GAME…almost makes me sympathetic to their (Minerbumping) cause.
Folks, this is a game. Our beloved overlords have declared that this a cold dark universe and some cold dark things can happen. If you are finding yourself raging, it may be time to step away, see the sun, catch your breath. There is a certain detachment that NEEDS to be in place here. Do the people who play Mario Brothers rage like this?? Do not be fooled, folks. When you are mining, you are prey. It may not be today, this week or this month, but there are people in EVE that view you with these eyes and it’s just a matter of time.
And, for the hunters…you know who you are. Lets have a healthy dose of respect for the prey.
Rixx Javix, writer of the Evoganda blog wrote a very interesting perspective on Lotka-Voltera (the mathematics behind predator vs. prey in an environment) and this struck me as pertinent…
Respect also means allowing people to choose their own path, and respecting their decisions. If someone chooses to be an ass-hat in Eve, then I have to respect that decision as well. That is their choice and far be it for me to change their minds. I don’t agree with that choice, but it isn’t mine to make. Have fun dealing with those consequences.
Luckily, unlike real Predators and Prey, Eve Online is not a life and death struggle. (Or it shouldn’t be. If it is for you, then we should talk. You need help.)
Respect your prey. They may or may not respect you back, but that is their choice.
You’ve already made yours.
Sigh…not sure where I intended to go with this. Just something I felt like writing about. Big thanks to Shizuka for the conversation and Rixx Javix/Evoganda for some very interesting reading!
Random
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